Take the 2-minute tour ×
Board & Card Games Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for people who like playing board games, designing board games or modifying the rules of existing board games. It's 100% free, no registration required.

Nancy controls a Runeclaw Bear enchanted by Hyena Umbra. Hyena Umbra has a regeneration shield, granted by Reknit. Anthony casts Planar Cleansing. This causes two replacement effects to apply. According to rule 616, Nancy gets to choose the order in which they apply.

616.1. If two or more replacement effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object, the affected object's controller chooses one to apply [...]

616.1d Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated [...]

If Nancy chooses to apply Totem Armor first, and then Regeneration Shield, does Hyena Umbra survive?

share|improve this question
1  
Choosing the same target twice for Decimate might have been a simpler example. :) –  Hao Ye Sep 2 at 21:43
2  
Nancy gets a warning for trying to cast a sorcery on Anthony's turn and the game state is reverted to before the illegal action. :) –  Affe Sep 3 at 5:45
    
@Affe I can't believe I messed that up. I was trying to start a thing where people on this site speak in terms of active and non-active player, just like the judge tests, and completely botched it. Oh well. It's fixed now. –  Rainbolt Sep 3 at 13:15
    
I don't quite understand the situation asked in this post, but this ruling on Austere Command may be useful regarding one effect causing destruction multiple times: "If the first and third mode are chosen, an artifact creature with converted mana cost 3 or less would be destroyed twice by this spell. It would have to be regenerated twice to survive. (A similar thing happens with most of the other combinations)" –  Kevin Sep 3 at 15:00
    
@Kevin Austere Command is different, modal spells are kinda funny. It created two effects that you execute in the order printed on the card. "Destroy all artifacts. (then) Destroy all enchantments." It's not the same as, e.g., "Destroy all artifacts and enchantments" which is a single effect applying twice (that gets converted to a single destruction by rule 400.6). –  Affe Sep 5 at 5:02

3 Answers 3

I copied the answer from here, where a similar question was answered by Daniel Kitachewsky. Daniel is a high-level Judge from France, and the goto-guy when judges don't know the answer.

Planar Cleansing resolves and destroys all creatures, artifacts and enchantments. I have a Runeclaw Bears enchanted with Boar Umbra.

The replacement effect of the totem armor saves the Bears, but if I have a way to regenerate the totem armor, will I have to regenerate it once or twice?

If there are two regeneration shields, the Bear Umbra is regenerated no matter what.

If there's only one regeneration shield on it, it gets more complicated: - If the same player controls Runeclaw Bear and Bear Umbra, that player may choose whether the Bear Umbra is destroyed or not. - If the active player controls Runeclaw Bear and the nonactive player controls Bear Umbra, the Bear Umbra is regenerated. - If the active player controls Bear Umbra and the nonactive player controls Runeclaw Bear, the Bear Umbra is destroyed.

Now for more detail:

What happens is that we have an event that's trying to move objects from one zone to another, and some replacement effects trying to change that event. Moreover, when two effects try to do mutually exclusive things to an object, such as destroying it twice, only one of these effects continues to exists, before being modified by further replacement effects.

A. In the scenario where one player controls both Runeclaw Bear and Bear Umbra, the event looks like this:

A1. Destroy Runeclaw Bear, destroy Bear Umbra

Two things try to replace this, regenerating the Bear Umbra and replacing destroying Runeclaw Bear by destroying Bear Umbra. The controller chooses which replacement effect to apply first; we'll see later if the other effect is still applicable.

  • If the controller chooses to apply regeneration first, we get

    A2a. Destroy Runeclaw Bear, tap Bear Umbra

    replaced thanks to totem armor by

    A3a. Destroy Bear Umbra, tap Bear Umbra

    ultimately destroying Bear Umbra.

  • If the controller chooses to apply totem armor first, we get

    A2b. Destroy Bear Umbra, destroy Bear Umbra

    modified into

    A3b. Destroy Bear Umbra

    because destroying an object twice is impossible, then replaced by

    A4b. Tap Bear Umbra

    And it's not destroyed!

    B. If Runeclaw Bear and Bear Umbra are controlled by different players, we fall into one of the scenarios above, but we don't choose which one.

    The active player applies the replacement effect trying to replace the event that affects the object he contols first, then the nonactive player gets to have his replacement effects.

    So:

  • If the active player controls Runeclaw Bear and the nonactive player controls Bear Umbra, we first apply totem armor, then remove one of the "destroy Bear Umbra" effects, then regenerate it.

  • If the active player controls Bear Umbra and the nonactive player controls Runeclaw Bear, we first regenerate Bear Umbra, then apply totem armor, thus destroying Bear Umbra.

share|improve this answer
    
Bear Umbra? is that a typo or a different card? –  Pow-Ian Sep 5 at 17:51
    
@Pow-Ian It's a different card. I don't understand "When two effects try to do mutually exclusive things to an object, such as destroying it twice, only one of these effects continues to exist, before being modified by further replacement effects." Where did the part in bold come from? –  Rainbolt Sep 5 at 17:53
    
CR 400.6. "that object’s controller—or its owner if it has no controller—chooses which effect to apply" –  ikegami Sep 5 at 20:32

Ok, expanding on the line of reasoning from Ikegami in that other question, the events produced by Planar Cleansing:

Destroy all nonland permanents

are effectively

Destroy Runeclaw Bear and destroy Hyena Umbra

Totem armor can replace the first event:

(Remove all damage from Runeclaw Bear and destroy Hyena Umbra) and destroy Hyena Umbra.

but the lone regeneration shield can only replace one of the "destroy Hyena Umbra" events. It doesn't matter which. The result then becomes:

Remove all damage from Runeclaw Bear and remove all damage from Hyena Umbra and tap it and destroy Hyena Umbra.

So Hyena Umbra is destroyed.

If you aren't convinced that the two destruction events are treated separately, rule 400.6 clearly states that they are:

Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous “destroy” effects.

share|improve this answer
    
For some reason, I got it in my head that "Destroy Hyena Umbra and Destroy Hyena Umbra" would collapse into a single event since you can only logically destroy something once. –  Rainbolt Sep 2 at 21:57
2  
@Rainbolt - I'm pretty sure there are no comp. rules about simplifying effects using Boolean logic. ;) –  Hao Ye Sep 2 at 22:12
1  
But this is exactly my point. How did you know there were two separate effects to begin with? You used Boolean logic to explain your case, and then disqualified my response on the basis of using boolean logic! –  Rainbolt Sep 3 at 0:45
    
@Rainbolt I think the idea is that the steps in the explanation are how you know there are two. Before applying the totem armor replacement effect, there are two things happening: the Bear is being destroyed, and the Umbra is being destroyed. After applying it, the former is replaced with the Umbra being destroyed - there are still two, unless the rules provide some way to simplify things. –  Jefromi Sep 3 at 1:09
    
@Jefromi You're right. I removed my counterexample since it was incorrect. –  Rainbolt Sep 3 at 1:25

Yes.

Planar Cleansing will try to destroy everything at the same time. Hyena Umbra gets two destroy effects from Planar Cleansing.

However, these both happen at the same time (not one after the other), and Regeneration is the next TIME this permanent would be destroyed. Once regeneration has saved it, both destroy effects have passed because they both tried to destroy it at the same time.

If the destroy effects were one after the other, then you would need more regeneration shields.

share|improve this answer
    
Hyena Umbra actually gets one destroy effect from itself and one from Planar Cleansing. Bear lives - Hyena dies. –  LuckySevens Sep 11 at 15:33
    
Yeah but they happen at the same time. –  Cameron Sep 11 at 21:33
    
Cameron, actually they would go on the stack in the order chosen by the controller of Hyena Umbra. –  LuckySevens Sep 12 at 7:42
    
Effects (and, in particular, replacement effects) don't go on the stack. In some cases they get applied in an order chosen by the controller, but that's not the same. –  murgatroid99 Sep 12 at 16:15

Your Answer

 
discard

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.