9

I was playing modern with the owner of a shop. He played a Scapeshift which he used to bring in 7 lands: 5 basic mountains and 2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle cards.

He then claimed that each Valakut triggered 5 times (killing me). I am doubting this now.

Here is my reason: The two Valakut cards entered at the same time as the other 5 basic lands. That means when they were on the battlefield and their ability was in effect, the other 5 basic lands were already there too. That seems too late to trigger a "Enters the Battlefield" effect.

So here is my question. Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, please show me how the enter the battlefield effect can trigger for something that enters the battlefield at the same time as itself.

If I am right, please show me the rules that prove it. I now have two shop owners that are convinced that this is a legal play. If it is not legal, I am going to need clear rules citations to convince them.

Side note: If I am wrong and it is a legal play, then I have a follow up scenario. Say I have 2 Champion of the Parish cards and 5 other human cards in my graveyard. If I play a spell that lets me return all of them to the battlefield at the same time (say Angel of Glory's Rise), would the Champion cards get 6 +1/+1 counters on them?

To me, if the trick that was played on me with Valakut is legal then my Champion cards should also get the +1/+1 counters.

| improve this question | |
  • @Rusher That question is about what order the various triggers happen in; this question is about whether or not cards see each other entering the battlefield when they enter at the same time. Though both are answered partially by 603.3b. – GendoIkari Jun 6 '14 at 16:18
  • @Gendolkari In that case, this is a possible duplicate of Do creatures that enter the battlefield at the same time see each other enter? – Rainbolt Jun 6 '14 at 16:33
  • @Rusher That one is similar; I linked it in my answer. But I don't think it's quite a duplicate. – GendoIkari Jun 7 '14 at 23:48
10

Your opponent is correct, whenever multiple objects enter the battlefield at the same time, their enters the battlefield triggers will all see all of them as on the battlefield.

603.6a Enters-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent enters the battlefield. These are written, "When [this object] enters the battlefield, ..." or "Whenever a [type] enters the battlefield, ..." Each time an event puts one or more permanents onto the battlefield, all permanents on the battlefield (including the newcomers) are checked for any enters-the-battlefield triggers that match the event.

And:

603.3b If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.

Note that the trigger happens AFTER the cards actually enter the battlefield. There is no time that Valakut was on the battlefield but the other Mountains weren't; so by the time Valakut's "enters the battlefield" triggers, they are all on the battlefield. If it did not work this way, any card such as Elvish Visionary that had "when [CARDNAME] enters the battlefield..." wouldn't work, because its ability doesn't technically exist until the card was put on the battlefield.

This is also a well-known combo for Valakut.

This means that this works for Champion of the Parish as well; the Champions would get 6 +1+1 counters in that case.

See similar question here.

| improve this answer | |
  • Note that this is what allows cards like Elvish Visionary to trigger off of their own ETB triggered abilities. – Hao Ye Jun 6 '14 at 4:33
  • @HaoYe Good point; I added that in. – GendoIkari Jun 6 '14 at 4:36
  • 1
    @Vaccano, it is tricky. I think to rephrase it in simple terms; the idea is that after things enter the battlefield, everything on the battlefield is checked to see if there are any ETB triggers. In this case, after the Mountains enter the battlefield, the game checks to see if anything triggers because they entered, and Valakut is there to be triggered now. – GendoIkari Jun 6 '14 at 14:53
  • 1
    @Vaccano, A permanent see itself entering the battlefield. If two or more permanents enter the battlefield at the same time, each permanent sees each other enter the battlefield. (That's not a human-readable version of the rule; that's a specific application of the rule.) – ikegami Jun 6 '14 at 15:03
  • 2
    @ikegami (and Gendolkari). That makes sense. If I view it from the point of the card entering the battlefield then it all becomes clear. The Mountains enter then look to see if anything cares that they entered. Since the Valakut cards are all there now, they both trigger. Thank you both for clearing this up for me! – Vaccano Jun 6 '14 at 16:09
4

Both you and your opponent are incorrect :

Let us look at valakut wording :

Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle enters the battlefield tapped.

Whenever a Mountain enters the battlefield under your control, if you control at least five other Mountains, you may have Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle deal 3 damage to target creature or player.

This is what happens at the stack :

5 mountains + 2 valakut enters simultaneously, so there are 10 valakut triggers (5 mountains * 2 valakut).

Then, EACH mountain trigger check whether there's at least FIVE OTHER, BUT, there are not. There are only FOUR OTHER mountains, so it doesn't successfully deal 3 damage to you.

Hint : take a closer look at "OTHER".

Btw, tell the store owner : "you need 6 mountains + 1 valakut + opponent has 18 life or less to combo-kill at 7 lands".

And, this kind of effect check is CHECKED UPON RESOLUTION, so, it's never too late as you stated earlier.

Source : I play scapeshift competitively.

| improve this answer | |
  • 1
    He just said that he brought in 7 lands with Scapeshift; he never said that there were no other Mountains still on the battlefield that weren't sacrificed by Scapeshift. – GendoIkari Jun 7 '14 at 20:50
  • I won't assume something he didn't say. – Moses Aprico Jun 9 '14 at 2:17
  • 2
    Your answer does assume something he didn't say. You said his opponent was incorrect, but that would only be true if something you assumed was true (that there were no other mountains on the battlefield). – GendoIkari Jun 9 '14 at 2:57
  • I can't tell if the other users are being purposefully obstinant, but OP is clearly implying the 5 Mountains brought in are the ones that meet Valakut's requirement. Perhaps he could chime in to explicitly say so. – user1717828 Oct 6 '16 at 12:45
  • @user1717828 this was 2 years ago – Moses Aprico Oct 7 '16 at 4:50

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.