21

The card does not say anything about whether or not the property is mortgaged. Also, it does not say anything like "twice what is entitled" like the similar railroad card does. I would go with you still have to pay, but I'm looking for backup to my opinion.

Here's what the card says:

Advance token to nearest Utility. If unowned, you may buy it from the Bank. If owned, throw dice and pay owner a total ten times the amount thrown

21

Yes, you have to pay. Consider what the card says:

Advance token to nearest Utility. If unowned, you may buy it from the Bank. If owned, throw dice and pay owner a total ten times the amount thrown.

This has nothing to do with paying rent.

As you mentioned, there is another Chance card that sends you to a railroad:

Advance token to the nearest Railroad and pay owner twice the rental to which he/she is otherwise entitled. If Railroad is unowned, you may buy it from the Bank.

This card refers to the amount to which the owner is otherwise entitled, namely rent. If the property is mortgaged, that amount is zero. The card you're asking about makes no such reference.

  • 4
    You may be right that this is a good interpretation of the way the rules actually read. I'm not sure that this is what it should read; it seems to go against the "spirit" of the game. – Tom Au Apr 30 '15 at 20:19
  • @TomAu, I'm not sure that's the case. The amount you pay when landing on utilities already follows different behavior from other property types, so it's quite in the spirit of the game to treat them differently from other properties when landing on them via Chance cards. – Joe Apr 30 '15 at 20:25
  • 2
    Absolutely this, I'm astonished how many people confuse this with rent. Not the same. – John Oct 23 '15 at 15:03
  • 7
    At first I agreed with this based on the card's wording, but this interpretation would mean that, were the utility owned and unmortgaged, you would pay 10* the roll in addition to the normal rent. As long as being moved to a location by a chance card counts as landing on that location (which it almost certainly does). With this in mind, do we expect that the intended result is to double-trigger utilities? – Samthere Oct 26 '15 at 16:45
  • 1
    @Samthere, that would make an excellent follow-up question. Both of the cards referenced above would be relevant to it. – Joe Oct 26 '15 at 16:47
7

I was initially on the side of "it's not a rent" (so is unaffected by mortgage state). But thinking about it, I've been forced to change my mind.

My initial thinking was as follows:

The following cards levy fines, but are not considered "rent" for being on the Chance/Community Chest square, and hence set the precedent: card-based fees are not rent.

"Make general repairs on all your property"; "Pay poor tax of $15"; "You have been elected the Chairman of the board - Pay each player $50". Community Chest: "Doctor's fees"; "Pay Hospital fees of $100"; "Pay school fees of $150"; "You are assessed for street repairs".

The following cards direct movement which could land you on an owned position, without giving instructions about rent to be paid, nor what may/should be done if the property is unowned. These cards set the precedent: buying or renting rules are unaffected unless stated.

"Go Back 3 Spaces"; "Advance to St Charles' Place"; "Advance to Illinois Ave"; "Take a trip to Reading Railroad".

My initial point of view was based on these two precedents. They seemed clear.


But then I thought further.

Only one other card directs movement to an ownable square. This card sets the (far weaker) precedent: terms for buying unowned spaces are restated, if the rental terms are also modified on the same card.

"Advance token to the nearest Railroad and pay the owner twice the rental to which he/she is otherwise entitled. If Railroad is unowned, you may buy it from the bank."


The Utilities card remains ambiguous. The possible interpretations that I can see, are: 1) The card's fee is in addition to the rental mechanism; you roll dice to calculate the fee, and also separately calculate the rent, if the property is unmortgaged. 2) The card's fee modifies the rental mechanism; you never pay normal rent, and only pay the fee (as rent) if unmortgaged. 3) The card's fee replaces the rental mechanism; you never pay normal rent, but you always pay the fee, whether mortgaged or not.

Option 1 is the only option you can go for, if you are arguing by the first two precedents, that card fees are not rent; or that rents are normal unless specified.

Essentially, you are arguing that the fee is a fare to get there, rather than a rent to stay there.

And yet, nobody is arguing for this option. Over and above the harshness of getting fined twice for a single event, there is a bigger problem.

When reaching Utilities by this card, if the property is owned and unmortgaged, the rent cannot be calculated as normal, using $4x[the dice rolled to get there], as you arguably did not roll dice to get there. The dice you rolled took you to Chance, and you were sent to the utility by a card! $4x0 would be zero rent. No other card (such as "Go back 3 spaces") can cause you to land on a utility, so it's just this card one which has this issue.

So the card must be stopping the normal rent from happening. Which leaves the other two options. Is it changing that rent to a different amount, or is it getting rid of it entirely and replacing it with a taxi-fare to get there instead?

Given that:

  • the precedent "card fees aren't rent" won't work here;
  • the precedent "rent is unaffected unless stated" won't work here;
  • the dice reroll seems designed to resolve that rental problem;
  • there's no other card which prevents rent payment;
  • there's no other property which can still earn when mortgaged;
  • the Railroad card seems intended as a parallel;
  • the Railroad card doubles normal rent and respects mortgages...

...I'd rule for option 2: that the payment is intended to be a rent, and that mortgages should be respected.

  • This answer would be better with a summary of the conclusion at the top. Something along the lines of "I argue you do not pay rent if the property is mortgaged. Here is why:" – Zags Apr 19 '17 at 23:49
-3

No, you do not have to pay. If a property is mortgaged no rent can be collected. I think that rule trumps the wording on the card. The wording on the card does in fact differ from the railroad chance card(s) or any other property chance card; this is because the rent works differently for utilities. I believe the wording "IF OWNED, throw dice and pay owner a total ten times amount thrown." was not meant to allow rent collection when mortgaged but rather to give the owner 10 times amount even if only one utility is owned (as opposed to the regular 4 times).

  • 3
    The card says pay "ten times the amount thrown". It does not say "pay rent". Mortgage prevents a property owner from collecting rent, but it does not prevent the owner from collecting ten times the amount thrown. – Rainbolt Oct 22 '15 at 21:28
  • +1 for your part about the intent of the card. I 100% agree with this part of your answer, and no-one else (that I've noticed) has called out that it is probably ensuring it is 10 times rather than 4 times. I'm still not sure whether play should follow the letter of the card or the intent of the card, but I think your answer is a very important part of the debate. – AndyT Oct 23 '15 at 16:11
  • I thin you are right - and you think I am right. Maybe we should up=vote each other's answers. – Forget I was ever here Oct 25 '15 at 22:51
  • @Rainbolt, Re "It does not say 'pay rent'", If you're right, you'd have to pay rent (when not mortgaged) in addition to that payment. That doesn't sound right to me. – ikegami Nov 4 '15 at 16:15
  • @ikegami I agree - it doesn't sound right. Either one of us is wrong, or we're both right and that's actually how it works. – Rainbolt Nov 4 '15 at 16:40
-4

Actually, NO!

Yes dear reader you are not supposed to pay the rent in that chance card. Now I know that you're asking questions already but hear me out. First, let us look and understand the chance card.

"Advance token to nearest Utility. If unowned, you may buy it from the Bank. If owned, throw dice and pay owner a total ten times the amount thrown."

Now let's focus on the 3rd sentence. In the sentence focus even more on the second word. Yes the word is OWNED, and what makes an individual owned a property?

First you bought the property, you received it with the title deed. Then you are now the owner. Next!

When it isn't mortgaged of course! Because when it is mortgaged, the property is sold 50% to the bank(creditor or lender). Which means the bank has the property with the title deed until it is payed. Look at this for support of my evidence.

"A title deed is the legal document which legally confirms the ownership of a property and is filed at the Deeds Office, and it contains details of the property.

A title deed is the legal document which legally confirms the ownership of a property and is filed at the Deeds Office, and it contains details of the property. From the time that you register a mortgage bond with your bank on the property that you purchased, they keep your title deed in safe custody until such time as your home loan is fully paid.

Up to that stage they are legally entitled to keep the title deed as it effectively belongs to the bank who has loaned you the money to buy the home."

You technically have 50% loan of the property sold, therefore while the property is mortgaged. The bank had the property and title deed until you pay it.

Now how about the train chance card?

Now we need to understand the card first.

"Advance token to the nearest Railroad and pay owner twice the rental to which he/she is otherwise entitled. If Railroad is unowned, you may buy it from the Bank."

Focus on "pay owner twice the rental to which he/she is otherwise entitled"

Remember we have 4 RAILROADS and the text would describe it as pay the owner TWICE the rent on which he or she is entitled or how many railroads he or she owns. How can I prove this? I'll use an example that it based on facts and the rules in the game.

Let say: there were 3 players named a,b, and c. A owns 2 railroads and b owns also 2 railroads and c owns nothing. Now c rolled a dice and it landed on chance he received the railroad card that pays twice. Now c lands on a's railroads.

A is entitled to 2 railroads, therefore c pays 100. This part was meant to clarify on how many a person owns a railroad. To support my proof further look at the word OWNER once again. You cannot pay the owner when it is mortgaged, it isn't his/hers but the bank does.

Edit: more proof on this:

Now lastly focus on OTHERWISE ENTITLED, this means you own or the railroads you own. You can search on google otherwise entitled means so that you will understand it further. So again, the card is trying to say:

"Advance token to the nearest Railroad and pay the owner twice the rental fee to which he/she is otherwise entitled or properties that he/she has rights to (to all those railroads she/he currently have pay the rent twice). If Railroad is unowned, you may buy it from the Bank."

  • 3
    The use of a word in a board game may not (and in the case of Monopoly, certainly does not) correspond to its legal or industrial definition in the real world. This applies both to mortgage (which you have totally wrong) and to deed (which you have ignored the statement on the Chance card to focus on). – Nij Apr 19 '17 at 3:17
  • 1
    You're logic doesn't really makes sense. If we go by it, then the property is not owned, and I can then buy the property from the bank. – Kevin Apr 19 '17 at 13:09
  • @Nij but the rules in game and the game is different from the real world. I get that but, I was referring to the word OWNED I added those word to add sense why we are not supposed to pay it. If you don't agree with me, I'm not forcing you. This is just an opinion. Because for me there's no reason to pay a property that is mortgaged. – Jerry Tin Can Apr 20 '17 at 0:18
  • @ Kevin what part doesn't make sense. I'm sorry for my grammar, I'm awful to be honest. – Jerry Tin Can Apr 20 '17 at 0:20
  • Your reasoning is based on what "owning a property" means in the real world. 1: your understanding of what "owning a property" means is wrong, especially when it comes to mortgages, 2: this understanding from the real world is not applicable to the game. You are making statements about something that can be objectively determined, so it being an opinion is irrelevant, your response is simply not a valid answer. – Nij Apr 20 '17 at 0:27
-6

No. You do not have to pay anything when landing on mortgaged properties whether you landed there or a card sent you there.

-6

It has to be un-mortgaged. Otherwise I would suggest that after you buy it mortgage it right away and get 1/2 your money back.

  • 1
    Why does it have to be unmortgaged? The one thing that's abundantly clear from the answers is that people aren't totally sure how to read the rules; adding an answer without justification doesn't really clear things up much. – Cascabel Apr 29 '15 at 5:00
  • With regards to your "Otherwise": If you can still get money from people being sent to your mortgaged utility by a Chance card, that doesn't mean than mortgaging it straight away is a wise choice. The vast majority of income on the utility is going to be rent from people landing on it normally - if mortgaged you'd be losing out on this money. – AndyT Apr 30 '15 at 11:43
  • I thin you are right - and you think I am right. Maybe we should up=vote each other's answers. – Forget I was ever here Oct 25 '15 at 22:52
-7

No; you do not pay.

From the Official Rules of Monopoly on the Hasbro web site under heading Mortgages (my emphasis):

No rent can be collected on mortgaged properties or utilities, but rent can be collected on unmortgaged properties in the same group.

To me this is unequivocal - no payment, whether or not denoted as rent, is ever collected on a property that is face down due to being mortgaged. Not carefully the wording "in the same group", and that it does not say "in the same colour group"; thus clearly indicating an applicability to railroads as well as coloured properties.

While an omission from the rules may, depending on circumstance, be regarded as an oversight, I can think of no reason why an explicit inclusion in the rules should not always be taken at face value. Clearly there is an omission about whether or not rent includes payment for landing on a Utility. However the explicit exclusion of payment for landing on a mortgaged utility is clearly an intentional inclusion - so payment is not due under this circumstance.

As the rules never make any distinction on how one lands on a square, to suppose that there is intended to be one for advancing to a Utility in consequence to drawing a Chance or Community Chest card is completely unreasonable.

Update

The claim is being made in comments that

"Your answer seems to be based on an implicit assumption that the payment demanded by the card is rent, or that when that rule says "rent" it means "rent or other payments", but it doesn't say that and neither do the rules."

I submit as counter argument this quote, again from the Official Rules of Monopoly.

Paying Rent:

When you land on property owned by another player, the owner collects rent in accordance with the list provided on the Title Deed Card.

Note the clear implication (at least), that the payments collected in consequence to landing on a property owned by another player are properly termed "rent".


Update - from the Official Tournament Guide for Monopoly, Page 7

Paying Rent on a Utility you throw the dice and land on Water Works or the Electric Company and another player owns them, don’t touch the dice. See what the total is. Multiply that number by 4 if your opponent only owns one utility, or by 10 if he/she owns both of them.

Paying Rent on a Fully Owned Property Group Suppose your opponent owns a complete color-group — for example, all three reds — with no buildings on any of them. If you land on one of the reds, you have to pay double its rent. But suppose one of the reds — e.g. Indiana Avenue — is mortgaged and you land on Illinois, it is unmortgaged. How much rent do you pay? Double, even though Indiana is mortgaged, your opponent still owns it.

Note that this Official guide explicitly refers to the amount paid for landing on a utility as rent. And the Rules otherwise clearly state that rent is not paid for landing on mortgaged property.

  • 8
    Your answer seems to be based on an implicit assumption that the payment demanded by the card is rent, or that when that rule says "rent" it means "rent or other payments", but it doesn't say that and neither do the rules. – Cascabel Oct 22 '15 at 23:59
  • @Jefromi: Again from the official rules linked to above: Paying Rent: When you land on property owned by another player, the owner collects rent in accordance with the list provided on the Title Deed Card. – Forget I was ever here Oct 24 '15 at 14:27
  • 1
    Okay, but the chance card is pretty clearly directing you to do something which is not in accordance with the deed card. Why is it still rent? – Cascabel Oct 24 '15 at 17:32
  • 1
    @Jefromi, Re "Your answer seems to be based on an implicit assumption that the payment demanded by the card is rent", If you're right, you'd have to pay rent (when not mortgaged) in addition to that payment. That doesn't sound right to me. – ikegami Nov 4 '15 at 16:16
  • @ikegami: To make your point a bit clearer - there is no basis or mention in the rules of "other payment for landing on property, NOT rent". – Forget I was ever here Nov 4 '15 at 23:34

protected by doppelgreener Apr 19 '17 at 15:10

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