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I control a Sporesower Thallid, Retreat to Emeria and a Kalastria Healer. Then I play Conspiracy and I choose Ally as Creature type. Then I play Life and Limb.

Now my questions are:

1) Will future Saproling tokens, made by the Sporesower Thallid, trigger both the Retreats Landfall ability, and the Healers triggered ability, when allies enters the battlefield?

2) Will future played forests do the same?

3) What will happen to forests already in play under my control?

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    Is there an infinite combo with the Retreat, Life and Limb, and Conspiracy/Xenograft with saproling chosen? I.E. Play Land -> Landfall -> 1/1/ Kor Ally (also saproling (also forest)) -> Landfall. – Cameron Oct 22 '15 at 13:48
  • @Cameron. If you add Sporemound to the mix, you can go inifinte with both allies AND Saproling Tokens. Life and Limb + Sporemound = infinte Saprolings (+retreat = also inifinte ally Tokens. You just need some way to end the infinte cycle, like bouncing either Life and Limb or Sporemound. – Lund Oct 22 '15 at 19:50
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Conspiracy and Life and Limb both apply in Layer 4.

613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.

When two effects apply in the same layer, they are normally applied in timestamp order (the order in which you played them). However, when a dependency exists between two effects, we ignore the timestamp system and instead follow a dependency system.

613.7a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

Life and Limb depends on Conspiracy. Life and Limb applies to Saprolings, but Conspiracy changes your Saprolings into Allies. Therefore, Conspiracy changes what Life and Limb applies to.

Conspiracy depends on Life and Limb. Conspiracy applies to Saprolings, but Life and Limb turns your Forests into Saprolings. Therefore, Life and Limb changes what Conspiracy applies to.

We have a dependency loop, so we revert back to just applying the effects in timestamp order.

613.7b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.

You played Conspiracy first, so by combination of the rules above:

  • Apply Conspiracy's effect first. All of your creatures become Allies.
  • Apply Life and Limb's effect second. All of your Forests become Saprolings in addition to their other types.

The result is that all of your creatures are now allies, except for your Forests which are now Forest Saprolings (but not Allies).


Phew! That was a mouthful. Now I can answer your questions:

1) Will future Saproling tokens, made by the Sporesower Thallid, trigger both the Retreats Landfall ability, and the Healers triggered ability, when allies enters the battlefield?

Saprolings will enter as Allies. They will trigger Kalastria Healer's ability, but not Landfall.

2) Will future played forests do the same?

Forests will enter as Forest Saprolings. They will trigger landfall, but not Healer's ability.

3) What will happen to forests already in play under my control?

They will be Forest Saprolings, but not Allies.

  • Thank you for the very elaborate answer. It's always nice when people take their time to explain the rules behind their answers. Now I know excactly why the combo unfortunately doesn't work as intended. – Lund Oct 22 '15 at 19:44
  • @Lund What was the combo (assuming that it did work like you had hoped)? I'm curious about why Thallid needed to be involved. This is a little off topic, so if you want to discuss it, come into the site's chat room. – Rainbolt Oct 22 '15 at 20:19
  • @Lund What was the combo (assuming that it did work like you had hoped)? I'm curious about why Thallid needed to be involved. If you want to discuss it, you could come into the site chat room. The chat moves a little slow, but the people in there always seem to enjoy brainstorming cards to combo with in a Commander deck. Maybe they can fix your combo. – Rainbolt Oct 22 '15 at 20:26
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This doesn't work exactly how you want because Conspiracy overwrites any existing creature types, so all of your creatures will be Allies with no other creature types, except your Forests which will be Saprolings (and not Allies).

205.1a [...] Similarly, when an effect sets one or more of an object’s subtypes, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes from the appropriate set (creature types, land types, artifact types, enchantment types, planeswalker types, or spell types). [...]

If you replace Conspiracy with Xenograft though it will work probably like you are hoping, since Xenograft adds creature types in addition to any types they already had.

With Xenograft set to Ally all of your Saprolings and Forests will have the type line Land Creature - Forest Ally Saproling. This means that all future Forests or Saprolings will indeed trigger Landfall and Rally abilities. All Forests or Saprolings that are already on the battlefield will become Land Creature - Forest Ally Saprolings but will not trigger Landfall or Rally abilities because they are already on the battlefield.

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