13

My opponent is at 12 life. There is a Furnace of Rath in play. He casts Lightning Bolt to my face and I play Deflecting Palm in response, aiming it back at his face.

Does my opponent take 12 damage and lose?

  • I'll let someone else answer officially, as I haven't played nearly as much lately and may be wrong. No, he would not LOSE. As Deflecting Palm is top of the stack it prevents the damage to you, Lightning Bolt is not doubled at this step as it would deal no damage. Then, LB hits your opponent and is doubled, dealing him a total of six damage. – sirjonsnow Jul 28 '17 at 12:20
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    @sirjonsnow That's pretty much an answer, could you post it as such? – doppelgreener Jul 28 '17 at 12:32
23

Your opponent will lose, providing you choose the correct order of replacement and prevention effects.

  • Your opponent casts Lightning Bolt.
  • You respond with Deflecting Palm and let it resolve.
  • You now have 2 replacement / prevention effects attempting to modify Lightning Bolt.
  • By rule 616.1

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

  • Since you are the affected player, you choose the order of replacement.

Option 1 - Apply Furnace's Effect First

  • This doubles the damage of Lightning Bolt from 3 to 6.
  • As per 616.1e, you now repeat the process with any applicable replacement effects

616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.

  • The only applicable effect left is Deflecting Palm.
  • Now your opponent is affected by Deflecting Palm dealing 6 damage to him / her, so they would make any applicable choices for replacement effects.
  • The only replacement effect here is Furnace of Rath again, which doubles the damage from 6 to 12.

Option 2 - Apply Deflecting Palm First

  • Lightning Bolt's 3 damage is prevented. Deflecting Palm now deals 3 damage to your opponent. Note that at this point, Furnace of Rath's replacement effect no longer is applicable to the Lightning Bolt event, so we don't worry about it anymore.
  • Like above, Furnace of Rath's effect applies to Deflecting Palm's damage, doubling it to 6.

So if you do it right, your opponent loses.

  • I wasn't sure if the redirected damage was an additional event or not, but I have confirmed that it is (CR 615.5, "[...] the rest of the effect takes place immediately afterward") – ikegami Jul 28 '17 at 16:56
  • @ikegami This answer is wrong and murgatroid deleted answer is right. 615.5 doesn't mean that the aditional effect is not part of the original event. It just means that the original event has been broken down in two, but both are still part of the original one. Think about it this way: in Magic one-shot effects can only happen as part of a spell or ability resolving, and replacement and prevention effects don't create one-shot effects by themselves, they just modify other events but don't change the source of the events... – Pablo Aug 1 '17 at 20:09
  • In this example, Lightning Bolt is still the source of all the one-shot effects that happen. If we say that Deflecting Palm's additional effect is not part of the original event, then ¿what is the source of that additional effect? The source can't be Deflecting Palm because prevention effects can't be the source of events. And if we say that the additional effect is not part of the modified event, the the source can't be Lightning Bolt. It would make no sense. – Pablo Aug 1 '17 at 20:16
  • @Pablo, Re "615.5 doesn't mean that the additional effect is not part of the original event.", 615.5 explicitly says the new effect happens after the event. Do you have anything to support your claim that the rule means something other than it says? If so, you should post it as an answer. Let me know if you do! – ikegami Aug 2 '17 at 0:30
  • @ikegami 615.5 says that the prevention effect takes places at the same time the original event would have happened, and the additional effect right after that. The key here is "original event". It doesn't say "modified event" because the additional effect is indeed part of the modified event. But I'll try to get some time to write a more detailed answer later today. – Pablo Aug 2 '17 at 16:11
6

Your opponent will, with correct play, take 12 damage and lose the game.

The damage doubling from Furnace of Wrath is a replacement effect, while Deflecting Palm is a prevention effect. Replacement and Prevention effects are closely related, and if, as is the case here, both apply to the same event (3 damage from Lightning Bolt), their order of application is decided by you, because you are the affected player in this case:

  1. Interaction of Replacement and/or Prevention Effects

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).

616.1a-c [none of these special steps apply]

616.1d Any of the applicable replacement and/or prevention effects may be chosen.

616.1e Once the chosen effect has been applied, this process is repeated (taking into account only replacement or prevention effects that would now be applicable) until there are no more left to apply.

Therefore, you can choose to first double the Lightning Bolt damage with Furnace, then prevent those 6 damage with Palm.

The 6 damage dealt by Palm are a new event, so Furnace will double it, resulting in 12 damage overall.

  • Are you sure the stack isn't resolved in order? I can see the above being true if Deflecting Palm was an enchantment in play, but as it's an instant I would think its effect would resolve before you even look at resolving Furnace of Wrath. – sirjonsnow Jul 28 '17 at 12:37
  • Deflecting Palm merely creates a "prevention shield" that activates the next time a source would deal damage to you this turn. It doesn't matter when exactly you cast it, as long as it resolves before the Lightning Bolt. Furnace of Wrath also does not resolve, it is a static ability with a replacement effect. It does not use the stack. – Hackworth Jul 28 '17 at 12:38
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    616.1 does not depend on who controls the Furnace and Palm, but on who is affected by the event (ie. damaged). – Michał Politowski Jul 28 '17 at 12:41
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    @Hackworth surely the answer is the exact opposite of your conclusion: When Palm is preventing, it is acting on the damage being dealt to OP. Thus he is the affected player and thus he gets to make the decision, so he chooses to allow Furnace First. – Brondahl Jul 28 '17 at 15:20
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    I think @Brondahl is right - Lightning Bolt is the event that will be prevented/replaced, and it targets OP, so OP gets to make the decision, not his opponent. – BJ Myers Jul 28 '17 at 16:09
-2

Short answer: your opponent takes 6 damage.

Long answer:

There is one prevention effect (created by Deflecting Palm) and one replacement effect (by Furnace of Rath). Replacement effects can only be applied once to a given event (rule 614.5).

Appling Deflecting Palm or Furnace of Rath first is decide by the affected player (the player who would be damaged by Lightning Bolt original effect).

If Furnace of Rath is applied first, then Deflecting Palm is applied to the doubled damage, and Furnace of Rath can't be applied again, resulting in 6 damage.

If Deflecting Palm is applied first, then Furnace of Rath is applied later, resulting in 6 damage.

Some people have the opinion that rule 615.5 implies that the extra damage is not part of the original event:

615.5. Some prevention effects also include an additional effect, which may refer to the amount of damage that was prevented. The prevention takes place at the time the original event would have happened; the rest of the effect takes place immediately afterward.

Notice how this rule doesn't say that the rest of the effect takes places after the event. It says that it takes places immediately afterward the time the original event would have happenend. The two phrases have slightly but very important differences. I want to stress the difference between the terms "event", "original event" and "modified event".

The original event in a replacement or prevention effect doesn't necesarily takes place at the same time that the modified event. This is obvious, for example if you think about a replacement effect that replaces something with drawing cards (for example, Lich), because drawing several cards can never be done simultaneously (rule 120.2).

So, in essence, rule 615.5 says that part of the modified event takes places at the same time that the original event, and part of the modified event takes places immediately afterwards. But they are both still part of the modified event. The purpose of this rule is to establish that de additional effect takes place after other possible events that take place simultaneously with the original event that is going to be modified.

Edit: I'll add an example with other cards that hopefully will clarify this:

Player A controls Lich and Words of Worship (interactions based on these two cards are commonly used as examples to explain fine details of interaction of several replacement effects, I'm going to assume that most people with deep understanding of the rules has heard rulings about these).

Player B controls Putrid Warrior, attacks with it, and chooses that "Each player gains 1 life" with its triggered ability.

With Putrid Warrior's ability on the stack, player A activates Words of Worship. It resolves.

When Putrid Warrior's ability resolves, Lich replacement effect is applied to it. Now the event is "player B gains 1 life, player A draws a card".

Because of rule 120.7, the card is drawn after player B gains 1 life. Or in other words, the card is drawn after the time the original event would have happened.

Now player B gains 1 life.

Now player A would draw one card, but Words of Worship replacement effect is applied, and the event becomes "player B gains five life".

Now, should Lich's replacement effect be applied again? This has been ruled time and time again as no, it should not.

  • The modified event replaces the original event, so if something happens after the original event, it also happens after the modified event. – ikegami Aug 2 '17 at 23:40
  • @ikegami that deduction is only true if you assume that all the actions in the modified event happen at the same time that the original event, and that's not always true. – Pablo Aug 3 '17 at 5:46
  • @ikegami I have added an example with other cards to better explain my point. – Pablo Aug 3 '17 at 13:29
  • Why did you add that example? Why are you telling me about it? There are no additional effects from prevention effects in that example, so it has nothing to do with my comment (or the question). In the OP's scenario, an effect/event is added (615.5), but no events are added in your example. Events are merely replaced, so 614.5 applies. – ikegami Aug 3 '17 at 15:50
  • @ikegami prevention and replacement effects have similar rules. So a rule about replacement effects that makes some effect take place after the original event and a rule about a prevention effects that makes some effect take place after the original event should behave the same way. I wrote the comment to you becasue you have be discussing this with me, and I personally like to be notified when something new about a conversation I have been having has been posted. Obviously that is not the case with you. Sorry for directing the reply to you, I will be more careful. – Pablo Aug 3 '17 at 16:04

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