Suppose Soul Sculptor has turned a Ramos, Dragon Engine into an enchantment, and the Ramos player casts a (colored) creature spell. Will they get the +1/+1 counters for it? More generally, if Soul Sculptor hits a creature that has cast triggers, will casting a creature trigger those abilities?

  • I can't really get a grasp on exactly when and how the Dragon becomes a creature again. It doesn't look like the Sculptor's ability creates a delayed triggered ability, and the only rules I've found in the rules which refer to similar wording specifically mentions "changing zones" and not changing types. I'd be interested to see an answer with some solid references. – Arthur Dec 3 at 14:06
  • 1
    @Arthur the sculptor creates a continuous effect with a limited duration. It ends as soon as its end condition (a player has cast a creature spell) is fulfilled. Ending the effect is not triggered and does not use the stack. – Hackworth Dec 3 at 15:35
  • @Arthur 611.2a is what explains this wording. There's nothing special about "until a player casts a creature spell" compared to something like "until end of turn". – GendoIkari Dec 3 at 19:54
  • @Gendolkari That's the best I can do as well, but that doesn't help us much with the timing as "end of turn" is a bit special that way (triggers and effects ending happen at different, clearly specified points of time). The main problem is still this: does the effect end early enough from a spell being cast for the trigger to see the spell being cast? – Arthur Dec 3 at 20:45
  • There is nothing particularly special about "end of turn". The phrase "end of turn" is part of a continuous effect with a duration that ends during the cleanup step. It never appears in triggered abilities because that use has received errata to "at the beginning of the next end step", which makes it clear exactly what the difference is. – murgatroid99 Dec 3 at 23:58
up vote 8 down vote accepted

The dragon will get counters.

603.10. Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions, and continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like.

To determine if an event (casting a creature spell in this case) triggered any abilities, we look at the state of things immediately after that event occurred. At the time that the game checks to see if anything triggered (immediately after the event), Soul Sculptor's continuous effect has ended.

Note that reverting to a creature when the spell is cast is not a triggered ability, or any ability that uses the stack. For that to be the case, Soul Sculptor would need to be worded as a delayed trigger. Something awkward like "Target creature becomes an enchantment with no abilities. When a creature spell is cast, this effect ends."

603.7. An effect may create a delayed triggered ability that can do something at a later time. A delayed triggered ability will contain “when,” “whenever,” or “at,” although that word won’t usually begin the ability.

Rather, it is simply a continuous effect that has a limited duration, and when the duration expires, so does the effect.

611.2a A continuous effect generated by the resolution of a spell or ability lasts as long as stated by the spell or ability creating it (such as “until end of turn”). If no duration is stated, it lasts until the end of the game.

Rule 613 explains how the current values of an object’s characteristics are determined. Immediately after a creature spell has been cast, when the game is determining what the dragon's characteristics are, it determines that the dragon is a creature with its normal abilities, because at that time, the enchantment-changing effect has ended, it is past the stated expiration point of the continuous ability.

  • The crux of the issue, in my mind, is whether Ramos becoming a creature again uses the stack. Would you mind including a rules reference for that? Generally, I have a pretty good handle on the rules, I have a hard time with delayed triggers and continuous effects – Belgabad Dec 3 at 21:33
  • 1
    @Belgabad I'm not sure what the best rule is to make that clear... it's more a lack of anything suggesting that it would be triggered. Triggered abilities must contain "when", "whenever", or "at" (603.1), and Soul Sculptor's ability does not. – GendoIkari Dec 3 at 22:03
  • I would suggest citing 611.2a more than 603.7, or at least in addition. There are a lot of things that this isn't, including a triggered ability, but it very specifically is a continuous effect with a specified duration. – murgatroid99 Dec 3 at 23:50

Your Answer

By clicking "Post Your Answer", you acknowledge that you have read our updated terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy, and that your continued use of the website is subject to these policies.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.