My friend plays a Commander deck, lead by Tuvasa the Sunlit:
Tuvasa the Sunlit gets +1/+1 for each enchantment you control.
She's in play and has +2/+2 — not counters — from the two enchantments on his battlefield. Then he plays Octopus Umbra, which reads:
Enchanted creature has base power and toughness 8/8 [...]
and continues in the rulings with:
Octopus Umbra overwrites all previous effects that set the creature’s base power and toughness to specific values. Any power- or toughness-setting effects that start to apply to a creature after Octopus Umbra becomes attached to it will overwrite this effect. (2018-07-13)
Any power- or toughness-modifying effects (those that give +N/+N, for example) and counters will apply to the creature’s new base power and toughness, even if they started to apply before Octopus Umbra became attached. (2018-07-13)
A judge explained to him that, when playing the umbra, every effect prior to playing the umbra disappears, and the new base power and toughness becomes 8/8. He explained that it has to do with the order of layers, which is still new and relatively confusing to myself and our table.
Now after reading the rulings, I'm confused about the "everything gets removed" part. How about Tuvasa's "passive" ability, which increases her P/T due to the amount of controlled enchantments? Isn't that checked constantly, making Tuvasa a 8/8 with +3/+3 from the enchantments?
Did we misunderstand the judge? Or is there something else we're missing? Any clarification would be much appreciated.
Question, in short
- In this scenario, what is Tuvasa's power and toughness when playing the umbra? Please take in consideration the example where the umbra itself will be the third enchantment on his battlefield.
- Do counters stay on the permanent when enchanting it with Octopus Umbra? Say Tuvasa also had a +1/+1 counter before the umbra came into play. My guess is that the counter stays, since they are placed on top of the base P/T, but I can't find the rules which support or contradict this.