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If I control multiple Seedborn Muse, do I untap each permanent I control once or that many times? This makes a difference if a permanent I control has a stun counter on it, because then multiple untaps can have different effects.

2 Answers 2

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Because the of wording "during" being something that doesn't refer to an specific/exact time, I don't think we can read Seedborn Muse as something that happens at a specific time (otherwise it would have to be "at the beginning of each other player's untap step, and rule 502.4 would have to be amended to allow triggered abilities to trigger and resolve during the untap step).

Thus the only logical meaning behind Seedborn Muse that I can see is that it overrides 502.3 so that instead of

the active player determines which permanents they control will untap. Then they untap them all simultaneously.

it becomes

you and the active player determine which permanents they control will untap. Then they untap them all simultaneously.

The important part is that all permanents that untap during the untap step untap "simultaneously". So there wouldn't be any way to both remove a stun counter and also untap it.

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    @Zibelas That's not what that rule means. Determining what permanents will untap doesn't (usually) involve any choices, it's mostly checking for effects that keep permanents tapped. All of the cards as far as I can find that have any effect that forces or lets you keep them tapped during untap steps specifically refer to your own untap step, so all of those would untap from seedborn muse.
    – Andrew
    Commented May 12, 2023 at 13:14
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    @ConMan This is not the case, "during" is not considered outdated by Magic and is still used very often when modifying what does and does not untap in the untap step, the most recent new card is Mesmerizing Dose from Phyrexia: All Will be One which says "Enchanted creature doesn’t untap during its controller’s untap step."
    – Andrew
    Commented May 12, 2023 at 13:18
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but the way Seedborn Muse is worded I believe it functions as a continuous effect / static ability. So it just modifies how the untap step works. Two of them modify the untap step to the same end state. So they'd just be redundant. It's not written as a triggered ability so it won't happen twice. (Same conclusion, different way of looking at how to get there.)
    – Becuzz
    Commented May 12, 2023 at 13:37
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    After looking around a little I found a ruling that confirms your answer: Murkfiend Liege has a ruling that says "Multiple Murkfiend Lieges are redundant when it comes to the untap effect. You can’t untap your permanents more than once in a single untap step."
    – murgatroid99
    Commented May 12, 2023 at 16:44
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    @ConMan This isn't the case of one of those phase abilities, this use for untap modification is covered by the last sentence in that section of the CR: “During” still appears in current card text, but only in its normal English sense and not as game terminology.
    – Andrew
    Commented May 13, 2023 at 18:20
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Prophet of Kruphix has a static ability which uses the same templating. Gatherer gives us a very clear answer for Prophet of Kruphix...

9/15/2013 Controlling more than one Prophet of Kruphix doesn't allow you to untap any creature or land more than once during a single untap step.

I'd say the extrapolation here is just about as safe as extrapolations come. The permanents should untap only once during a single untap step.

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