# Corner variation which is not in Josekipedia

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . a 0 4 8 . |
\$\$ . . . . . 1 5 6 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 9 7 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 2 . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 3 . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

My opponent played this sequence. I was sure that I could play a in the game, but it finished horribly. What should I play?

• I think this question greatly showed up the potential of collaborative research possible on Board and Card Games. Each answer highlights a few important aspects, and taking all of them into account, we get a very decent solution to the problem. :)
– mafu
May 15, 2012 at 20:47
• a doesn't look so good, and locally 7 would be better at Q17. Or to put it another way, white should have played 6 at Q17. That said it also depends on the board context, and what stones are around K16. Dec 16, 2015 at 1:37

This question may look simple at first, but refuting the deviation is pretty difficult - there are no original sources on this to my knowledge.

## Not answering the hane directly

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . a 0 4 8 . |
\$\$ . . . . b 1 5 6 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 9 7 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 2 . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 3 . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

First off, let's try a different answer to white 6. Black could consider playing 7 at a or b, but I believe the result would be bad. It can be considered, though, if the board is right.

Hane at a could lead to a complicated fight, probably involving an exchange, but I could not tell if it is better for either player.

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . 3 O O . . |
\$\$ . . . . 1 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 2 . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . a . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

The idea of b is to either magari-turn at 3 if white connect on the right, switching to the top instead of the right side all of sudden. This would be very unusual after blocking at 5 initially, and locally white gets a superior result. I presume that (apart from extending on the top) black would like to add a stone at a later to enclose white and get a reasonable outside shape. Either way black is not thick.

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . a 2 O O . . |
\$\$ . . . . 1 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . 3 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

If white instead opts to push from behind on the third line once more (at a) before returning to play 7, it is better than joseki for black. If white attempts to resist by jumping to a, black will not hane at 3 next, but push through at 2 and cut, involving a ladder.

In conclusion of this section, while an option to consider, I would not regard a different answer to the hane a refutation at all.

## Reverting to joseki

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . 2 . O O O . |
\$\$ . . . . 1 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

After the deviation is played out, black could nobi at 1, with white jumping at 2. Seemingly, this is even because we returned to joseki.

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . O O 1 . |
\$\$ . . . . a X X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

However, instead of the usual move at a, black might consider playing at 1 instead. This leads to a different joseki, with emphasis on territory on the right edge. Losing this option is a loss for black. This in effect means that white's early hane is superior to joseki, which is impossible by definition. Accordingly, returning to joseki is not sufficient as a refutation of the deviation.

``````\$\$Wcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . a O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . X X 1 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

As a side note, the hane is sometimes played by white in a similar shape precisely when white is afraid of a black hane there instead of the usual nobi at a. This is an (uncommon) joseki.

So sum this up, we still have not found a viable refutation.

## Hane

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . b 1 O O O . |
\$\$ . . . . a X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

Another option is to hane at 1. In this shape, white has the options of cutting at a or clamp at b. Hane underneath is impossible since black would be most glad to just nobi-extend.

``````\$\$Wcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . 4 2 . . . . |
\$\$ . . . 1 X O O O . |
\$\$ . . . . 3 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O a . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

After the clamp, descending at 2 is very dangerous. The sequence to 4 is the basic pattern likely to follow, but the fight is easier for white since black has no good response to a.

``````\$\$Wcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . X O O O . |
\$\$ . . . . 1 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

If white cuts, a fight involving a ladder will follow, possible leading to an exchange, as explained in a different answer. This can get pretty messy if both sides keep playing the strongest moves.

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . a 2 . . . . . |
\$\$ . . c 1 b O O O . |
\$\$ . . . . . X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

Black is not forced to hane, he can consider a keima, too. Usually, white would attach at 2, leaving black with the options of a, b, c or tenuki. Since white was lowered to the second line, I consider this a superior for black.

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . c . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . 1 2 O O O . |
\$\$ . . . b a X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

In case white plays 2 instead, bumping against the black single stone, black should consider either covering at a or the strong nobi at b.

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . b . . . . . |
\$\$ . . a X O O O O . |
\$\$ . . . c 1 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

In case black covers at 1, it is difficult to clamp at a, because white lacks an as effective attack on the 5 (instead of 4) black stones.

Crawling on the second line at b once or maybe twice is an option, in both cases probably leading to white gaining sente. Locally, the result is very bad compared to joseki, but white finished in sente twice, which is very valuable, too.

There is also the option to cut at c. This fight should be acceptable for both.

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . 4 . . . . |
\$\$ . . 3 2 . . . . . |
\$\$ . 5 . X O O O O . |
\$\$ . . . 1 6 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . 8 7 . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

In case black plays strongly, white will aim to exploit the increased cut aji, likely starting with the hane at 2. This way, white gets life while getting enclosed by a thin black group.

However, black can consider different moves (e.g. 5 at 6, or even 3 at 6).

``````\$\$Wcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . X a O O O . |
\$\$ . . . . 1 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

As per the comments, there is a very strong variation with white cutting immediately. If black cuts at a, it will return to the situation that requires a black ladder.

``````\$\$Wcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . X 3 O O O . |
\$\$ . . . 4 1 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . 5 2 . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

Without said ladder, black will have to hane from the outside at 2. The sequence to 5 will follow, leading to a fight. Black's shape seems relatively poor so this should be carefully examined before playing the keima.

## Conclusion

If black specifically wants to avoid a fight, he can always chose to play the simple nobi (6 in the previous diagram) to revert to the usual joseki.

On the other hand, despite the vast number of possibilities that arise from the keima, I believe this to be the best option in case black wants to resist and does not mind a fight.

So we could say that black has gained far more options than he lost by white's deviation, thus refuting white's move.

However, likely the early hane is a only tiny mistake.

• After Black's 1 in “leaping ahead”, P16 reverts to the previous cut, so Black must have the ladder. May 14, 2012 at 18:22
• With the ladder your O17 proposition is interesting. Note however that after W P17 and B P16, W crawling once on O18 and taking sente is not so bad. May 14, 2012 at 18:30
• @StéphaneGimenez: If crawling at O18, I would probably crawl a second time to avoid black's bend. Either way is relatively painful for white as black gets very, very strong on the outside, far more than by the usual joseki, while being enclosed too. I cannot tewari-prove this but my understanding is that this is bad for white unless sente is super important (but in that case white has different ways to play that do not make black as thick).
– mafu
May 15, 2012 at 10:16
• @StéphaneGimenez: About P16 reverting to the cut, I don't think it will really revert because there is one additional push. This makes it considerably harder to attack the 5 (instead of 4) black outside stones. I guess it would lead to a fight that is not bad for black (cut O16, nobi N17, move the cutting stone out O15, hane Q14)
– mafu
May 15, 2012 at 10:20
• Your second, third and fifth diagrams assume a white stone at Q17, which wasn't played until white 10 in the original sequence. May 15, 2012 at 18:07

First, let's notice that b in the following:

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . a 0 4 8 . |
\$\$ . . . . b 1 5 6 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 9 7 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 2 . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 3 . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

reverts to a well known joseki where 10 is played before 6.

It seems possible for Black to play a, answering the cross-cut with 3 (see below), but he needs a ladder to answer 4:

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . 3 1 O O O . |
\$\$ . . . . 2 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . 5 . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O 4 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

So:

• If Black has the ladder… Since the previous position (at move 3) is very advantageous for Black, white will most probably clamp instead of cutting (as proposed by shujaa). In this case black can consider playing like this, and add a shape fixing move of his choice (N16 or O15), depending on the surroundings.

``````\$\$Bcm1 8 at 1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . 4 . . . . |
\$\$ . . 5 2 1 O O O . |
\$\$ . . . 3 6 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . 7 . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

Or he might prefer to stick with the standard joseki, playing b.

• If the ladder is favorable to white… then a is not an option at all.

Last Remark: In this joseki variation, instead of a or b, N16 could also be a good (and safe) alternative, and there is also O17 (but it requires the same ladder). Tennuki has to be strongly motivated, because white playing b is huge.

• If White doesn't have the ladder she should clamp at O17 instead of cutting at P17. May 10, 2012 at 20:10
• @shujaa: Indeed I missed it, if black then plays P16 the result is not as good as the standard joseki. But black can also try O16, P18, N17, P16, P15, P17, and finish with some shape fixing. May 10, 2012 at 20:23
• And if Black does have the ladder then it would be more than slightly advantageous for black. Compared to a standard 3-3 invasion and this misplay of white's is much better for black! May 10, 2012 at 20:23
• I'm pretty sure black should hane regardless because the clamp doesn't work. I remember this shape from a misplayed punishment of a joseki deviation which will backfire badly. If black had to play the nobi instead of the hane, it would be too good for white because black lost the possibility of playined S17 after Q17, which is a different joseki.
– mafu
May 11, 2012 at 14:15
• After consulting a few sources, it seems what I just wrote is mostly wrong... now I'm really confused, because white's deviation is not supposed to be superior to joseki regardless of the ladder ò.o
– mafu
May 11, 2012 at 14:19

This is in Josekipedia, just with a different move order. (I don't know how to link to a specific josekipedia variation, but taking the moves as numbered in your question and reordering 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, you can see your marked stone as a bad move, with 2 ways to punish. A hane at P17 is standard for a 3-3 invasion without an approach stone, but you cannot ignore white's stone at R14!

Though it can feel too easy on the corner, P16 is joseki. White gets a big corner, but black has a nice wall and strong influence on the side.

``````\$\$Wcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . 9 . 3 1 7 . |
\$\$ . . . . 4 X 2 5 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 8 6 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

If, as in @Stéphane's answer, Black insists on P17 it is equivalent to the above (see below), except black's move by pushing prematurely is an example of aji keshi (in fact, almost identical to the illustrative example of aji keshi on Sensei's Library). If Black pushes down instead of connecting then white can cut at P16. Of course, if white does have the ladder than she can cut at P16 immediately instead of the O17 clamp, which is much more painful for black.

``````\$\$Bcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . 4 . . . . |
\$\$ . . . 2 1 O O O . |
\$\$ . . . . 3 X X O . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X X . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

N.B.: White usually plays 3 (Q17) in my diagram before 5 (S16) just in case black brashly makes the P17 mistake. However, if black already had a partial enclosure with a stone at 017 then S16 would first is correct.

``````\$\$Wcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . 7 . . . . |
\$\$ . . . X . . 1 5 . |
\$\$ . . . . . X 2 3 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . 6 4 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . , . . . |
``````

Here white is alive though the corner is much smaller and doesn't extend as well into the top.

Black also has the option of blocking on the top if White chooses to hane underneath first. The variation below is from Josekipedia and listed as "even", though no source is cited.

``````\$\$Wcm1
\$\$ -------------------
\$\$ . . . . . . 9 . . |
\$\$ . . . . 8 7 4 3 . |
\$\$ . . . 0 . 2 O 5 . |
\$\$ . . . . . X X 1 . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . 6 O . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . X . . |
\$\$ . . . . . . . . . |
``````

One would wonder here why Black would initially block the right side and then (seemingly inconsistently) switch to blocking on the top. Black should not do so without a reason.

• P17 is not necessarily a bad move after 5 - 6 exchange, why do you claim so? May 10, 2012 at 20:03
• Now I agree :-) May 10, 2012 at 20:29
• Regarding your first diagram with the Chinese fuseki: I would be reluctant to say that this is necessarily bad for white. Rather, I would consider the pincer at R12 almost a mistake, because in your sequence white gets an easy life in the corner. The right side is not bad for black, but it looks a bit easy to make overconcentrated (I'd try shoulder hit at Q8). Instead of the pincer, I would rather try black 8 or black 6, trying to enlarge the corner while keeping the white stone from getting an easy base. However, I guess it's playable and I could not confidently call it bad for either player.
– mafu
May 15, 2012 at 20:44
• @mafutrct Thanks. I took out the Chinese bit--it was tangential at best and you're right, not ideal. May 16, 2012 at 17:03

a is not the joseki move b is do tewari black starpoint white kakari black pincer white invade 3-3 black blocks white nobi (move 10) black b then black hane and connect before jump

• Welcome! It's not really clear which diagram you're referring to. Could you expand your answer with some diagrams? (You can click "edit" on the other answers to copy their diagrams and paste them into your answer to edit.) Jun 15, 2012 at 21:32