Timeline for Why do effects that exile a card from the graveyard use the characteristics the card had in the graveyard?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
37 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Aug 5, 2017 at 17:46 | history | undeleted | murgatroid99♦ | ||
| Aug 5, 2017 at 1:21 | history | deleted | Cascabel | via Vote | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 17:08 | answer | added | Affe | timeline score: 4 | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 16:04 | comment | added | TheThirdMan | I feel similar to @Malco, though I'm interpreting the question as "why don't all cards that move cards between zones look at the last-known information". I'm seeing a pattern, and I'll give it a shot even though I doubt that none of you saw it. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 16:02 | answer | added | TheThirdMan | timeline score: 1 | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 15:54 | history | edited | murgatroid99♦ | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Reordered sections, tried to clarify further
|
| Jul 26, 2017 at 15:29 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ | I tried to edit to clarify a little, but the question in the title is still what I'm asking. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 15:27 | history | edited | murgatroid99♦ | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Wording
|
| Jul 26, 2017 at 15:22 | comment | added | Malco | Coming to this question now, not having seen the progression you guys have gone through to get here, it isn't really clear what is being asked. It might be worth it to edit it down a bit to try to clarify things, or scrap it and start over again. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 14:42 | comment | added | ikegami | @Hackworth, There's no ruling on Scour. Do you use the name of the object on the field or the name of the object in exile? Note that Scour doesn't say "the exiled card" | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 14:12 | comment | added | Hackworth | The ruling on Deicide seems to be bugged. The card itself also has inconsistent wording, look at Scour which does almost the same thing as Deicide, and has better wording. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 12:26 | comment | added | Becuzz | @ThunderToes I just googled "Skullbriar gatherer rulings" and found another site that had them copied. Don't know how up to date that was, but it gives a pretty good idea anyway of how that card screws things up. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 12:24 | comment | added | ThunderToes | Searching for that card is made infinitely harder because the gatherer site is down... again and yeah if cards like this exist then I would presume the ruling are like this for that reason maybe. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 12:19 | comment | added | Becuzz | @ThunderToes RE: cards whose P/T can be altered in the graveyard -> see Skullbriar, the Walking Grave? I swear that card was designed just to screw with the rules. I wonder if that is the caveat that ruling is accounting for. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 8:16 | comment | added | ThunderToes | @ikegami But cant they be changed during the resolution of the spells to counter certain aspects of it? the rulings seem to just be showing where the characteristics are checked so that they can properly resolve. perhaps casting Deicide on Atheros then in response the devotion drops and atheros is no longer a creature that would change the outcome? is it possible to change the power of a creature in the graveyard? I'm not aware of anything that can do this... | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 7:43 | comment | added | ikegami | @ThunderToes, By the way, some cards automatically stop being Gods when they enter the battlefield, and become Gods when they leave the battlefield. See Athreos, God of Passage. (When it's not a creature, it also not a God as that's a creature subtype.) This means the ruling on Diecide is important in regular scenarios. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 7:41 | comment | added | ikegami | @ThunderToes, Re "I think thats what defines Dread Defiler from Deicide the fact that deicide does not interact with power and only enchantments", Not only does that not mesh with the other examples, there's nothing clsoe to a basis for that in the rules, which simply treat both power and type as characteristics. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 7:07 | comment | added | ThunderToes | A defining factor for this in my opinion would be if there are ways of altering the power and/ or toughness of a card in the graveyard... but you would expect the scavenge ability to quote the same thing as dread defiler as it interacts with the power of a card... I think thats what defines Dread Defiler from Deicide the fact that deicide does not interact with power and only enchantments. it also may be possible with responses to change the target of deicide to another "Enchantment" that isn't already a God changing how the card would resolve? | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 4:44 | history | tweeted | twitter.com/StackBoardGames/status/890070258458996736 | ||
| Jul 26, 2017 at 4:19 | comment | added | ikegami | Maybe not. Death's Caress: Two sentences -> Zone of origin. (Doesn't use "exiled card", though) | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 4:14 | comment | added | ikegami | hum.... Does it matter if the reference to the exiled card is in the same sentence or not? Deicide: Two sentences -> Exile. Corpse Lunge: Two sentence (with a paragraph break in between) -> Exile. Spark of Creativity: Two sentences -> Exile. Morbid Bloom: One sentence -> Zone of origin. (This doesn't address mentions in the cost.) | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 4:11 | comment | added | ikegami | I wish I could find another card that exiles from the battlefield and checks characteristics of the "exiled card", but Deicide is the only one I can find. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 4:09 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ | I've edited the question to focus on the difference between Deicide and Dread Defiler, while still addressing Soul Separator and Varolz | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 4:08 | history | edited | murgatroid99♦ | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Change focus, use contrast with Deicide to focus on specific problem
|
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:51 | comment | added | ikegami | Sure, but it might be clearer to focus on a clear contradiction. Then you can ask about the difference between the two. Generic mentions of 400.7 then make no sense since it should either apply to both or neither. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:51 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ | Yeah, I'm going to try to edit to add those while still asking the same basic question | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:51 | comment | added | ikegami | Deicide vs Dread Defiler... wtf? I think you should reask the question more focused on this example (or similar) | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:44 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ | The rulings I pointed out seem to be consistent specifically for cards that are moved from the graveyard to exile. See Dread Defiler and Morbid Bloom. Similarly, effects that move cards from the battlefield to the graveyard tend to check the characteristics as they were on the battlefield. But effects that move cards from the graveyard to the battlefield also tend to look at the characteristics as they are on the battlefield after the move. And effects that move cards from the battlefield to exile tend to look at them as they exist in exile. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:41 | comment | added | ikegami | There's Death's Caress and Marionette Master, making Cragganwick Cremator the odd one out. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:33 | comment | added | ikegami | Or maybe Soul Separator is buggy? Is there another example like Soul Separator? | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:28 | comment | added | ikegami | humph! Just saw the ruling on Cragganwick Cremator. You should include that in your question. Deleted my answer. There appears to be some unwritten rules as to which object should be checked. What's special about CC? Is it because the card is randomly chosen? Or is because it started in a hidden zone? | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:18 | comment | added | ikegami | I'm not saying it is. After all, Soul Separator is equivalent yet uses the wording from the Scavenge's reminder text. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:18 | comment | added | murgatroid99♦ | Thank you for that correction. I didn't realize when I wrote the question that the specific wording of the ability would be important. I've changed it to refer to the actual definition of the ability instead of the reminder text. | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:17 | history | edited | murgatroid99♦ | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Fixed Scavenge definition
|
| Jul 26, 2017 at 3:15 | comment | added | ikegami | Note that the actual wording of Scavenge is different than what you quoted: “Scavenge [cost]” means “[Cost], Exile this card from your graveyard: Put a number of +1/+1 counters equal to the power of the card you exiled on target creature. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.” | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 1:55 | answer | added | ikegami | timeline score: 1 | |
| Jul 26, 2017 at 0:02 | history | asked | murgatroid99♦ | CC BY-SA 3.0 |