Does the use of Sunforger's unattach ability negate the ability of Void Winnower and let me use spells with an even converted mana cost?
Add a comment
|
3 Answers
No you can not cast CMC 0, 2 or 4 spells with Sunforger while your opponent controls a Void Winnower.
Sunforger's ability gives your CMC 4 or less spells an alternate cost, but it doesn't actually change their CMC.
117.9: Some spells have alternative costs. An alternative cost is a cost listed in a spell's text, or applied to it from another effect, that its controller may pay rather than paying the spell's mana cost. Alternative costs are usually phrased, "You may [action] rather than pay [this object's] mana cost," or "You may cast [this object] without paying its mana cost." Note that some alternative costs are listed in keywords; see rule 702.
117.9c: An alternative cost doesn't change a spell's mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell's mana cost still see the original value.
So even though you aren't actually paying for the spell, Void Winnower's ability still sees it as an even Mana Cost and prevents you from casting it.
Interesting side note brought up by @ikegami in the comments: Even though you can't actually cast the spells, you can still attempt to use Sunforger's ability, so if you will be able to pay RW, unattach Sunforger, look through your library, then shuffle it. Might be useful if you need to shuffle your library for some reason (ie. you control an Experimental Frenzy and have a land stuck on top).
Void Winnower prevents you from casting cards with even mana cost via Sunforger.
Why Sunforger can't cast cards with even converted mana cost
The reason is from the Magic Golden Rules:
101.2. When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can't happen, the "can't" effect takes precedence.
Sunforger tells you to cast it. Void winnower says you can't cast it. Rule 101.2 means Void Winnower's ability takes precedence.
Why Sunforger can still cast cards with odd converted mana cost
So can you cast anything with Sunforger while Void Winnower is on the battlefield? At first glance, it seems like Void Winnower would prevent you from using Sunforger at all because it prevents casting cards with converted mana cost 0 and Sunforger makes the spells cost 0. However, this is not the case.
Sunforger creates an alternative mana cost, which doesn't change the converted mana cost of the card, so you can still use Sunforger cast cards with converted mana cost 1 or 3 while Void Winnower is on the battlefield.
The relevant rules are:
117.9c: An alternative cost doesn't change a spell's mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell's mana cost still see the original value.
202.3. The converted mana cost of an object is a number equal to the total amount of mana in its mana cost, regardless of color.
-
2101.2 not really what is applicable on this case. There is nothing allowing the casting of a 4 CMC in the same sense that winnower prevents things to be cast. Sunforger is creating an alternative casting method Commented Feb 12, 2019 at 15:51
-
2@fireshark519 Sunforger says you can casting it (just without paying it's mana cost). Void winnower says you can't cast it. This is exactly what's relevant.– ZagsCommented Feb 12, 2019 at 18:03
-
2@fireshark519 101.2 absolutely applies in this case, your own answer applies 101.2 but doesn't quote it. "you would be casting the spell, whether you pay the mana cost or not, it will still be a spell with converted mana cost 4 (or 2)."– AndrewCommented Feb 12, 2019 at 18:44
-
@Zags - rectracted my -1. Even though I don't agree as Sunforger is not allowing you to cast a spell but instead the ability is to cast a spell, I don't agree that it creates this point in the rules where there is a "can" and "can't" In my opinion it is more applicable to a Bristling Boar with menace than this. Commented Feb 13, 2019 at 9:10
-
1Re "Why Sunforger can still cast cards with odd converted mana cost", Nice addition– ikegamiCommented Feb 14, 2019 at 21:26
No it will not. Sunforger's unattach ability reads:
Unattach Sunforger: Search your library for a red or white instant card with converted mana cost 4 or less and cast that card without paying its mana cost. Then shuffle your library.
As you can see by the wording on the ability you would be casting the spell, whether you pay the mana cost or not, it will still be a spell with converted mana cost 4 (or 2). You can still use it but only for spells with cmc 1 and 3.
